I don't think so -- are we doing that for Visigoths? I'd leave it for now -- there are more pressing needs and debate on this subject might run it into an edit war.
Sons -- Theuderic, Chlodomer, Childebert, Lothar -- at this point, I don't think any need links, IMHO. JHK
14:05 26 May 2003
Removed the map and all the other attempts to make the Merovingians "French" -- also the nonsense about Wotan -- not a Frankish god. The descent, through Merovech, was from a sea-monster -- at least that's what Gregory says, and he's the source of most everything on the early Merovingians. There was some decent stuff added on the goths, etc, but either was clearly taken (or paraphrased in wasy not acceptable to comply with copyright, from other sources. It could be put in again, buy preferably by someone who gets the chronological flow correct and who can keep his pronoun references straight. JHK
14:37 26 May 2003
I have actually read the James book, but not since it first came out. Perhaps you wouldn't ming quoting the pertinent passage with page number, and then we can judge this in context, or I can pick up the book at the university and check it out. It's an hours' drive, but I'd be happy to check. WHat you included though, appeared to have been taken far too liberally from your source -- again, violating copyright and plagiarism standards, thus putting the site at risk.
As for the map, I removed it for no reason other than that I believe it is still under copyright, and even without, the source should be cited.
Finally, I have never abused my sysop status -- any reversons I have done can be done by any user. JHK
15:13 26 May 2003
This is almost laughable:
I didn't replace Toxandria with belgium, unless it was part of a general reversion.
ANyone can revert to a previous version -- if I can do it not logged in from any IP, then it isn't a sysop thing.
If you have uploaded the picture recently and done all the verification, then I apologise -- but since I've seen this picture before, and it was copyrighted, perhaps you could provide the source anyway? After all, you should have it at hand. Otherwise, it hasn't been deleted.
To prove my point that you haven't really been reading the discussions posted, nor the changes I've made, might I point out that I added the James book to the List of French monarchs list YESTERDAY, and that I suggested you and Jacques read it?
Oh - and doesn't James also discuss that the Romans were in "France" before the Franks, and that the Gauls were there before that? JHK
21:07 26 May 2003
T -- if you look at the history of the WOtan article, you'll see that it is fae from perfect. Much of it is just left because no one took the trouble to finish fixing it. It was largely written by an ex-user who insisted all Germans were equally germanic -- you'd have really liked her -- SHe'd have said flat out that, because the Franks were germanic, they were really German kings. If I recall correctly, Wotan was not a Frankish god -- or at least there is no evidence that he was. JHK
21:48 26 May 2003
Kt- I wouldn't even say wrong -- I would just say that that view has generally been replaced by ...
Hey Fred -- thanks for your help. BTW, the feeling that things needed to be checked for plagiarism is in part due to differenced in writing style, partially just from experience. As I said before, the stuff is all in the history and can be replaced when it gets checked out. It's good information, but it can't even parallel James too closely to avoid plagiarism charges and copyright infringement. Better safe than sorry. Oh -- and the page where all this started, the List of French Monarchs, says that there is a tradition of starting the kings of France with Clovis. But Frankly, when we first worked on this article (and it was edited from the 1911 Brittanica), it was not a part of the original article (IIRC) and it has never been in question until we got a bunch of people who refuse to accept that the Germanic tribes are now being considered as separate entities -- if people disagree, please just look at the number of books written on Goths, Franks, Lombards (not so many), etc, in the past 30 years. JHK
13:48 27 May 2003
The James book Triton keeps referring to is listed as available at UW, so I'll try to pick it up today. I've got a pile of papers to grade, though, so may not get to the check till later. Please remember, this is not an accusation of plagiarism, just a check to make sure that the facts listed get listed in the right order and that interpretation isn't mixed in without citation. Triton added a lot of really good information -- it just sounded very textbook-y, and wasn't in his usual style. Much of it should be incorporated, but only if we can do it without infringing on fair use. Triton -- please remember the stuff isn't gone -- just not out there to be read at the moment. Better to have a carefully written entry than one cobbled together with the intention of proving a point, and better to make sure we don't put the project in a legally difficult position. JHK
