Jump to content

Talk:Max von Sydow

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


How to format nationality

[edit]

I do not agree with this reversal, also done as the start of an edit war rather than discussing here. Von Sydow spent most of his career living and working in Sweden. His is the epitome of a "Swedish-French" life story, if there ever was one. "Swedish-born, French" only cover his birth and that is by far not enough in this case. I will reinstate the traditional format "Swedish-French", at the expense of the trendy one which is being used far too indiscriminately, unless someone can put a good reason here not to. SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:12, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Then Bobby Fischer was an Icelandic chess player and Tina Turner was a Swiss singer, Calling Max von Sydow a 'French actor' makes a mockery of Wikipedia. 85.230.80.69 (talk) 03:36, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Swedish-French, not French. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 09:07, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Should we omit von Sydow's nationality in the first sentence and explain it later (e.g., ... is an actor ... Von Sydow began living in France following his second marriage. He relinquished his Swedish citizenship after obtaining French citizenship in 2002 ...)? Thedarkknightli (talk) 17:55, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For what reason? Fine as is. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 15:06, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree. The current one is kinda ambiguous. There's definitely a clearer way to describe von Sydow's nationality and it's necessary to find it.
Btw, sorry for edit warring. Thedarkknightli (talk) 18:09, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I see no reason to abandon such clear and specific wording as had been used in cases like this for decades and decades. Von Sydow at his death was Swedish-French, like it or not. Let's not make him something he wasn't!--SergeWoodzing (talk) 14:44, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I'll start an RfC cuz I haven't found a better solution. Thedarkknightli (talk) 17:18, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

RfC on nationality in the lead

[edit]

Should the first sentence say Swedish-born French, Swedish-French or some other option? Should we omit von Sydow's nationality in the first sentence and explain it later?

As for previous conversations, see this, this and this.

Thedarkknightli (talk) 09:35, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

[edit]
  • Imo, we should omit it in the first sentence and explain it later. I find hyphenated terms kinda ambiguous. Why not avoid them (e.g. by replacing hyphen with the word "and") if possible? Thedarkknightli (talk) 11:19, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Swedish. Summoned by bot. For goodness sake's, the man was Swedish straight down the line. He was born and grew up and into middle age in Sweden, worked for a long time in Swedish-language films (he resisted even working outside Sweden for a while, turning down good roles), including many artistically notable Bergman films and including one of the most iconic roles in film history (the chess player). He moved to France when he was 68 years old because his wife was French and he did not even work there, I think; and it really isn't at all key to understanding the article subject to indicate that he was partly French. What passports etc that he held is a technicality and tells us little about the subject of the article. Whether or not he joined the French film actors union etc. would be of more importance. All this is mentioned in his Personal Life section and that's where it belongs.
If we had to pick a second nationality for him, I suppose it would be American, since he spent a lot of time working there, making many popular American films with which he was also associated. I don't think that we generally hyphenate non-American actors who work a lot in Hollywood, tho. Herostratus (talk) 12:23, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But he continued his acting career after receiving French citizenship (and giving up his Swedish one), which is a fact we can’t ignore. Thedarkknightli (talk) 13:09, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Right, but somewhere down in the body of the article.--Herostratus (talk) 05:03, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Both options presented in this survey are incompatible with MOS:NATIONALITY. We do not use country of birth, "Swedish-born French". These details can be introduced in the second sentence if they are of defining importance. Also, In cases of public or relevant dual citizenship, or a career that spans a subject's emigration, the use of the word and reduces ambiguity. The options are to either omit the nationality, call him Swedish, or call him Swedish and French. Since he became a citizen of France he should be called Swedish and French. Nemov (talk) 13:19, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Swedish or Swedish and French.(Summoned by bot) Per MOS:NATIONALITY: "In cases of public or relevant dual citizenship, or a career that spans a subject's emigration, the use of the word and reduces ambiguity." Here's the thing, I don't think we're in any danger of making things ambiguous by omitting French, especially since it's right there in the infobox and further down the page. He's a Swedish actor known for being a Swedish actor. My only hesitation is that we don't know whether the French citizenship is a pure technicality or not. Did he consider himself French? TheSavageNorwegian 14:25, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Swedish > omit, oppose Swedish-French though the question had been complicated by von Sydow relinquishing his Swedish passport for a French one, obituaries in major RS go with Swedish actor. Either we follow them or turn it into an " it's complicated" situation. Draken Bowser (talk) 11:40, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Swedish-French: standard term for any and all such situatuons. No reason to deviate in this particular case, though a few still-sad-and-gloomy Swedes wish he never would have moved to France. Neutral content, please! --SergeWoodzing (talk) 15:57, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Swedish French. There is no need to be very specific about it on the lead because there is no such dispute among reliable sources. Dympies (talk) 04:00, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Swedish > Swedish-French > Swedish-born French. Follow the sources: a web search for "actor max von sydow" and then ctrl+F for h actor shows a sizable majority of results using Swedish alone, with rare exceptions being rogerebert.com/CBC (Swedish-French) and UPI (Swedish-born French). Hameltion (talk | contribs) 22:14, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Swedish per above arguments. Traumnovelle (talk) 02:41, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

[edit]

Hi, have we reached a consensus that the descriptor should simply be "Swedish"? I'm not that familiar with the relevant rules. Thedarkknightli (talk) 05:59, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 07:38, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Clear Looking Glass: hi, could you please take a look at this? Thanks in advance! Thedarkknightli (talk) 21:26, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Max_von_Sydow&oldid=1252180729"