Talk:Borscht Belt

Decline

Another important reason for the decline of the Borscht Belt is found in increasing Jewish assimilation. No one can now openly and legally discriminate against Jews in the U.S., as was done very frequently in the past, and also there are far fewer Gentiles who are closed-minded enough to resent or openly object to sharing facilities such as hotels, restaurants, and pools, for example, with Jews. As Jews are welcome in mainstream establishments to a degree unthinkable a couple of generations ago, the demand for Jewish-oriented resorts has consequently declined. This has as much to do with the decline of the Borscht Belt as probably any other single factor, except mabye the ease of travel to Florida compared with two generations ago. Shouldn't this be addressed in the article as well? Rlquall 22:25, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Probably so, if you can find something to cite. For claims of causality, citation and attribution is particularly important. -- Jmabel | Talk 22:48, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)

The peak time is characterised as: "According to Time, "the Borscht Belt resorts reached their peak in the 1950s and 60s, accommodating up to 150,000 guests a year," but the start of a decline was apparent by the late 1960s." Is the number of 150 000 guest per year correct? According to [1] [2] [3] that's the number of guests that Grossinger's had on it's own. "Grossinger's had about 550 guest rooms and 250 staff rooms when it closed." [4] Thus, this is 200.000 room*nights (and rooms may be occupied by more than one person). I have read that at it's heyday, the whole Borscht Belt was responsable to host more than 1 million guests per summer - this included not only the big hotel resorts but also the bungalow camps and kuchaleyns. --Gunnar (talk) 11:16, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

@Gunnar.Kaestle: what you are saying sounds entirely correct to me. - Jmabel | Talk 20:32, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

There is a difference between guests per summer season and room nights rented, as guests may stay just a weekend or several weeks, but nevertheless the Time reference seems to be wrong. So which reference should be quoted? Is there a scientific source available where a tourist researcher has actually digged down in the statistics? The Borscht Belt Museum writes: "Less than 100 miles from the cramped, sweltering tenements of Manhattan’s Lower East Side was a lush patchwork of forests, farms and bustling rural towns that hosted a summertime population of nearly a million urban strivers hungry for the clean air, fresh food and familiar camaraderie that even a garment worker or cab driver could afford." The number of 1 million guest per season is something I read in other press articles as well, but I would love to find a researcher's opinion on it. American Jews#Significant Jewish population centers says there are almost 2 million Jews in the metropolitan area of New York City, so this means ca. half of them did spend a summer vacation in the Borscht Belt (assuming the census did not change much since the 60s). On the other hand, can it be that the whole of the Borscht Belt is only 7 times the hosting capacity of Grossinger's? IIRC, Gossinger's was not the largest resort but the Concord with 1500 rooms instead of 550. I assume that the Borscht Belt also hosted non-jewish guests, but on the other hand, maybe the long summer stay was more typical with cheaper bungalow colonies and the kuchaleyns, and not so much with "luxury" resorts like Grossinger's.

The same source also says: "From the turn of the 20th century to the 1970s, more than 1,000 hotels, bungalow colonies, summer camps and boarding houses dotted the Catskill Mountains of southern New York." to indicate the peak. I find the number of 1000 misleading as other sources say there have been 500+ hotels, plus 50.000 bungalows in the peak years – thus counting the different types of accomodation separately. I would also say, that a "summer camp" is a bungalow colony which has no heating facilities and therefore is closed in fall and reopened for the next summer season. It is not a summer camp to which you send kids and teenagers (basically organised camping as I did this in my youth at the North Sea), isn't it? --Gunnar (talk) 08:47, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

For the time being, I described the peak as 500+ hotels, 50000+ bungalows and 1000+ boarding houses (I think that were mostly self-catered kuchaleyns). Actually, the term cook-alone is misleading as you often would cook together with other guests ;-) [5] As far as I find a good source on ~1 million guests per year, I'll add this information. I have read something like that somewhere. Gunnar (talk) 14:40, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Million guests per year during the peak plateau is often said, but also half a million:

• "The crowds picked up around the 1920s, and by the peak in the 1950s, a half-million people each year were enjoying the getaways during the summer, according to Northeastern University’s Catskills Institute." [6]
• "In 1950, half a million people spent their holidays in the Catskills." [7]
• "The resort colonies began a century ago, and by the 1950s some nine hundred hotels brought in more than a million guests a year." [8]
• "By the 1950s, more than a million people inhabited a magical Jewish summer world of bungalow colonies, summer camps, as well as small and large hotels." [9]
• "This 1986 film chronicles the rise and fall of the summer pilgrimage from New York City to the Catskills once made by 1 million people a year from the 1920s to the 1960s.", says the caption on the 1986 documentary. [10]
• "Every year between 1920 and 1970, almost one million of New York City's Jewish population summered in the Catskills." wrote Irwin Reichmann. [11]
• "Entertaining a Million Jews" titled the same author an introduction for a different book on a similar subject. [12]
• "The heyday of the Jewish resort culture was the 1950s, when more than 1 million people would visit the Catskills bungalow colonies, summer camps, and small hotels every year." [13]

I'd rather opt for the round number of 1 million guests in the Borscht Belt per year. Even if Grossingers had many guests which stayed only 1-2 weeks for a busy business husband & wife and the cheaper bungalows & kuchaleyns had middle to low class vacation the whole summer, I can't believe how else 7 x Grossingers (150 000 p.a.) = ~1 Mio. does make sense. --Gunnar (talk) 16:43, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Names of the places

Well the Raleigh just closed. The Pines closed a few years back. I'm going to Kutchers the week after next. Anyone know what happened to the Granit? Are there any others left?

These places are not closing because of assimilation, their problem is that they are all huge buildings with vast running costs delapidated past repair catering to a clientelle that is now used to staying in Mariotts and Sheratons. --Gorgonzilla 01:38, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't expect Kutchers to last more than a couple of years. It is't cheap but the level of service is low. Mouldy carpets, bad food, roof leaks, overflowing toilets. --Gorgonzilla 23:14, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

And such small portions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.101.228.193 (talk) 14:07, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

A major part of the article is just mentioning resort names in a sentence, explaining when it went out of business or similar. I don't think that this is encyclopedic content: better is to explain the context and the big picture while naming a few examples which are iconographic or stand out of something special. --Gunnar (talk) 19:59, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

"upstate"

This topic was split off from #Decline, above.

Is the Borscht Belt really in "upstate" New York? It appears to be in the southern part of the state, which is not traditionally thought of as "upstate" (except to those who live in NYC proper). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.187.10.252 (talk • contribs) 1 July 2006.

Well, I'm a Long Islander, so Upstate begins in the Bronx. More seriously, I'd use the term for anything past Westchester and Rockland Counties. Our article has a map that seems to say the same. - Jmabel | Talk 20:12, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

"The resorts, now mostly defunct, were located in the Catskill Mountains in parts of Sullivan and Ulster counties in the U.S. state of New York, in Upstate New York and the northern edges of the New York metropolitan area." claims today's introduction. I believe this phrasing to be misleading, as upstate New York can be defined most broadly as everything except NYC and Long Island. This is a large area, and gives no extra information. The clear demarcation are the two counties (Sullivan and Ulster), which help to locate the Borscht Belt. Gunnar (talk) 14:06, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

I'd suggest: "The resorts, now mostly defunct, were located in the southern foothills of the Catskill Mountains in parts of Sullivan and Ulster counties in the U.S. state of New York, bordering the northern edges of the New York metropolitan area." See also Talk:Borscht Belt#Orange County? about the location question.

Yes, technically it is true that the Borscht Belt is part of Upstate New York, but to someone who is not very familiar with the geography the area (e.g. the county names), it is more helpful to state that the Borscht Belt is located in the southern half of the Catskill Mountains, and is rather close to Greater New York. These are expressions of place which are more helpful to the unknowing reader, who consults an online encyclopedia. Gunnar (talk) 10:30, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Ashkenazi Jews?

This topic was split off from #Decline, above.

Why does the article single out Ashkenazi Jews? Is this verifiable? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.53.42.160 (talk) 02:50, 14/July/06

Certainly. But it's also obvious: the Borscht Belt originally centered on Yiddish-language entertainment. To say that the audience were Ashkenazi Jews is like saying that the audience for a Polish-language standup comedian is mostly Polish. In fact, I'd be hard pressed to name a Borscht Belt comedian of any note who was not an Ashkenazi. - Jmabel | Talk 00:44, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Danny Thomas, Lebanese Christian. :-) Why isn't Adams' book mentioned? 85.159.160.202 (talk) 19:09, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Link goes to wrong Joey Adams

The link for Joey Adams gets redirected to Joey Lauren Adams, a talented actress born in 1968. I do not think she is the Borscht Belt comedian who wrote the book Borscht Belt in 1973. Did the redirect from Joey Adams to Joey Lauren Adams wipe out a previous article on the older Joey Adams? Or, was there never a Wikipedia article on the Borscht Belt comedian Joey Adams? r3 21:57, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Looks like this has been cleaned up to a stub. - Jmabel | Talk 01:07, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Map

It just occurred to me that the map that is used to illustrate this entry is wrong. It shows all of Sullivan and Ulster counties. Actually the old Borscht Belt included just portions of those counties. According to one of my books on the subject, it extended west as far as about White Sulfur Springs, but not as far as Callicoon and further up the Delaware. Same goes for Ulster. I think the map should go, unless an accurate one can be found. --JohnnyB256 (talk) 22:00, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

I've removed the map as no one seemed to object. I'll see if I can get a public domain photo as its replacement. JohnnyB256 (talk) 15:24, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

As someone who grew up in the area, yes, you are correct: a large swath of Sullivan County, including the towns of Fallsburg, South Fallsburgh, Monticello, Woodridge, Mountain Dale, Kiamesha Lake, Glen Dale, Woodburn, Thompsonville are included; many around the periphery are not. Although the Nevele, which attracted some Borscht belt comedians, was in Ellenville (Ulster County), the communities that followed the Western face of the Shawangunks were not generally included in the local definition of "Borscht Belt"; and major Catskills resorts such as Mohonk Mountain House are definitely not Borscht Belt. But I don't think the definition is strictly geographic, so an attempt to define boundaries on a map may be fruitless.

A couple of other observations: the decline of the Borscht Belt was already occurring in the 40s (there is a paucity of local history books of Sullivan County, and I have none, but I believe you can find a reference the that decline with some effort), and was pretty much sealed when railroad service was eliminated in approximately 1955 (and all the tracks were torn up). The slow decline through the 50s and 60s may have also included other factors, including the increasing accessibility of air travel, and the maturation and diversification of resort-owning families (including the establishment of winter resorts by those same families in Miami and Florida East Coast; the Flaglers come to mind).

Note that, while Dirty Dancing portrayed Borscht Belt resort sensibilities, it was filmed at a hotel in Virginia; and, while the term "Jewish Alps" was sometimes used, "Yiddish Alps" was the far more common; and finally (again, from personal experience), "upstate" New York was generally considered any community that was NOT New York City, its first-ring suburbs, and Long Island.Manskybook (talk) 20:25, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

A better movie in terms of historical accuracy is "Sweet Lorraine," which is available on DVD. It was filmed at the old Heiden Hotel near South Fallsburg. On the timeline of decline, it could be that it was the 40s but I agree that sourcing on that is limited. Actually sourcing for this article in general is not great. --JohnnyB256 (talk) 15:10, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Included the movie more prominently. Marquenterre (talk) 19:37, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There was a move discussion in progress on Talk:Borsch, but it ended. Disregard the following: "There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Borsch which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RM bot 03:15, 4 July 2010 (UTC)". The discussion ended 11 July 2010, but no one bothered to update this page.71.109.155.189 (talk) 01:37, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Humor in Article

"Lasers played no role in the fire."

Heh.

Heh. Heh.

Heh. Heh. Heh!

Allen Sherman, George Burns, and all the Borscht Belt regulars would have *loved* that one! Please, would-be editors and admins with no sense of humor, leave that one as sacrosanct. It's proof that historical references do *not* need to be dry, dull and boring! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.116.83.41 (talk) 04:30, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Why The 'Borscht Belt?'

Why was it called the 'Borscht Belt,' as a play on of the Bible Belt? Why not the 'Torah Belt?'--Splashen (talk) 03:16, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Probably because it lacks alliteration. (Tumblehome (talk) 13:29, 18 January 2014 (UTC))

"It’s said that the name was coined by the editor of Variety, a guy named Abel Green, who called it the Borscht Belt." [14] --Gunnar (talk) 20:22, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Life magazine from January 31, 1938 writes in an article on Bei Mir Bistu Shein: "The Grossinger Hotel is on the fringe of the Catskills, known as the 'Yiddish Alps' or the 'borscht belt'." [15] So both terms had been established in the late 1930s, and it is plausible that Abel Green, at the time 37 years old and 20 years in business as journalist and almost 5 years as Variety's editor, was the father of the "borscht belt" name. But it is not plausible that Larry King coined the "Yiddish Alps", as he was only 4 in January 1939. --Gunnar (talk) 12:31, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

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Cleaned up a bit

I took the liberty of reorganizing a bit. The interesting bits were drowning in too much info about individual resorts.

Somebody should probably research what became of the gambling efforts, and add it into "History".

Marquenterre (talk) 19:21, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

One aspect of cleaning up it the choice of figures and its placing: today, there are mostly pictures from the '70s showing the hotels when they were in a state prior to the collapse of the region which came in the following decade, and a second gallery of delapidated buildings. I don't think it is wise to place photgraphs from the 70s in the 'name' or 'history' section, as this gives a false impression what the text is about. Text and pictures should go hand in hand telling the paragraph's story, thus if there are photos from the early days available, these should be added to the history section. --Gunnar (talk) 13:51, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Fine, if we had such photos. But we don't - look at Commons. Johnbod (talk) 16:36, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Late 1800s example of tourism in the Catskilills

Obviously, if you only look at Roadside America - Sullivan County, NY you will only find the photos taken by John Margolies. Please widen up the horizon. The Grand Hotel at Highmount, NY is an example for late 1800s tourism in the Catskills - although I don't know if it followed the "no Hebrews" policy. Nevertheless, it shows that this low mountain range had been already some sort of tourism before the borscht belt became massive. [16] shows a picture of Grossinger's Hotel in the 30s.

BTW, reverting the changes to the text without any explanation can be interpreted as vandalism especially when the 'coined by Larry King' remark had been corrected and removed. Therefore, I will revert you last move. If you want to thin out the gallery, I am fine with that. As you added a picture, I did not assume that you are afraid of more pictures. But just dispersing pictures to places which do not match to the nearby text is something I object. --Gunnar (talk) 19:58, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

See the picture policies! The text should be illustrated first, then galleries used for overflow. I looked through nearly the whole Borsch Belt sub-categories on Commons on. You revert my improvements but if I revert yours, that's "vandalism"! No, it isn't. As I said, do what you like to the text. I will restore my improvements. Johnbod (talk) 02:29, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

You did not restore your improvements, you did reset all my changes in the text. Your "improvements" were just 2 moves of existing photos and the addition of a third one. You should first explain why this is an improvement, in order to come to a consensus or compromise. As I said, I do not think that it is good style to add unrelated pictures to a given section of an article which are not related to the content of this section. Why do you deny the adequacy of a borscht soup picture as an add-on to the explanation where the name borscht belt came from? I assume that not everybody knows instantly what borscht is and how it looks like and therefore find a red soup picture helpful to support the text. --Gunnar (talk) 06:01, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Cleanup and more citing needed

This article is something of a mess, filled with uncited claims that read like someone's personal reminiscences and OR observations, plus many WP:DATED violations, which I have tried to address. I've removed some of the more egregious / tangential uncited claims and added citation requests to others. Surely, a topic as researched and written-about as the Borscht Belt has copious published and online sources that can be cited.--Tenebrae (talk) 18:43, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Orange County?

Although some (newspapers) say that the Borscht Belt comprises Sullivan, Ulster and Orange county, I'd like to test this hypothesis and suggest only take the first two counties as granted. Here is the reasoning:

Sullivan and Ulster county as the Borscht Belt as part of the Southern Catskills

a) Wikipedia itself shows only Sullivan and Ulster County on a Borscht Belt map, but does not mark Orange County.

b) There is another map, which clusters Borscht Belt hotels around Monticello, Liberty, Ellenville, which is most of the Middle to East part of Sullivan County and a Western slice of Ulster County.

c) Quite a few experts only count Sullivan and partly Ulster as the Borscht Belt, but do not mention Orange: "by the late nineteenth century, Sullivan and Ulster counties were linked to New York City. [..] Sullivan and Ulster rapidly became prime resort locales" [17]; "From the 1920s through the early 1970s, the Borscht Belt was the preeminent summer resort destination for hundreds of thousands of predominantly east coast American Jews. The exclusion of the Jewish community from existing establishments in the 1920s drove Jewish entrepreneurs to create over 500 resorts, 50,000 bungalows and 1,000 rooming houses in Sullivan County and parts of Ulster County." [18]; "Classic Borscht Belt Sullivan County is really only the eastern part of the county, with a bit of southern Ulster County included." [19]; "At the turn of the 19th century the celebrated Jewish resort area started in the Sullivan and Ulster County Catskills." [20]

d) The Catskills are basically 4 countries: Delaware and Greene in the North, Sullivan and Ulster in the South. The Borscht Belt is on the southern flank of the Catskills. Actually, the Borscht Belt is not in the "high mountains" but in the foothills of the Catskills, but it still belongs to the Catskills.

e) Drive time from NYC Downtown is less than 2 hours, a little bit less than 100 miles. This does not qualify for Orange County which is surely a nice area and even nearer for having good vibrations during vacations, but it is not the Borscht Belt neither the Catskills. --Gunnar (talk) 13:54, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Here is some feedback I received by email:

• While a small portion of Ulster County was part of the Borscht Belt, there are no sections of Orange County that was ever considered so. Of course, the same O&W Railway that helped create the Borscht Belt in that sliver of Sullivan and Ulster Counties where it existed did also run through a section of Orange, so we might see some similarities, but to the best of my knowledge, no one ever lumped any part of Orange County into the vague definition of the Borscht Belt.
• No to Orange County - nice place with some Catskill-like resorts, but no huge contiguity and continuity and density of culture. There was a small collection of Jewish hotels around Moodus, CT. At our conferences we had talks by Shira Dicker on bungalow colony life in the Monroe area of Orange County, Amy Godine spoke on the Jewish resorts in the Adirondacks, and Ellen McHale and Pamela Brown spoke on the Jewish Resorts of Sharon Springs in Schoharie County. Just not the same...

-- Gunnar (talk) 20:59, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Musical legacy

We should probably have something about the musical legacy too, including how it relates to Latin genres such as were popular at the Palladium Ballroom. Pharos (talk) 19:25, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

These look like two good book sources: [21] and [22]. Pharos (talk) 19:52, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

'is' versus 'was'

"The Borscht Belt, or Yiddish Alps, was a region noted for its summer resorts that catered to Jewish vacationers, especially residents of New York City." – This sentence in the introduction seems to be wrong concerning the tense (present vs. past). The name of the region is still up-to-date, the area is still known under the name Borscht Belt, but the region does not fulfil the function of being a popular summer resort of NYC jews anymore. Gunnar (talk) 14:26, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

I found an example as equivalent: Gettysburg Battlefield – "The Gettysburg Battlefield is the area of the July 1–3, 1863, military engagements of the Battle of Gettysburg in and around Gettysburg, Pennsylvania." The Battlefield is still there and known under the lemma, although the fighting has stopped more than 160 years ago and does not serve the purpose of exchanging military hostilities anymore.

What's with the following wording: "The Borscht Belt, or Yiddish Alps, is a region which was noted for its summer resorts that catered to Jewish vacationers, especially residents of New York City." Gunnar (talk) 11:05, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Done. Gunnar (talk) 19:30, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Hunter: Paradise Garden Theatre

"The tradition of Borscht Belt entertainment started in the early 20th century with the Paradise Garden Theatre constructed in Hunter, New York by Yiddish theater star Boris Thomashefsky." Are more sources available about the beginning of the Borscht Belt Humor with the performances of Mr. Thomashefsky and associates? Gunnar (talk) 19:24, 9 October 2024 (UTC)