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True or false: this article belongs at Liberty (disambiguation) with Liberty being a re-direct to Freedom. 66.245.125.9 23:11, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Positive and Negative liberty needs to be disambiguated; this is an important point, albeit, a contentious one.Edunoramus (talk) 17:21, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As I suspected, it appears that my attempt at disambiguation between Positive liberty and Negative liberty has started an edit war. I'm just documenting it here. As my effort here is in good faith, I aim to negotiate and discuss changes to this disambiguation article. I welcome comments and questions as to my intent is as follows: specifically, I believe it is important to discuss the difference between free will and determinism. There is an attempt to imply and impose free will in a definition of Positive liberty and, it seems important for people that are concerned about Negative liberty to also be able to explain how Positive liberty should be and must be defined. I object to their position and argument because they do not seem able or willing to acknowledge the broader debate around Structure and agency as it relates to discussions and debates concerning free will versus Determinism in the context of defining Positive liberty; this is at the heart of the dispute here over the definition.[1] [2] [3] Happy to discuss. Edunoramus (talk) 20:54, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Berlin, Isaiah. Four Essays on Liberty. 1969.
  2. ^ Steven J. Heyman, "Positive and negative liberty." Chicago-Kent Law Review. 68 (1992): 81-90. online
  3. ^ Charles Taylor, “What’s Wrong With Negative Liberty,” in Philosophy and the Human Sciences: Philosophical Papers, vol. 2 (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1985), 211–29.
First, both phrases are partial title matches that are really little more than highly specialized subtopics of the primary topic liberty. Even if there were legitimate basis to include on the disambiguation page, the descriptions that go along with the entries should neutrally reflect the linked articles and not forward one POV in what appears to be contentious. For the record, I have no horse in this race and could not care less about any of the philosophical positions. older ≠ wiser 21:09, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It's a disambiguation page, its purpose is to list articles that have the same or similar name. It's not an article in and of itself, and is not the place to discuss the finer points of libertarian ideology. ... discospinster talk 21:19, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • My aim is to ensure that Positive liberty and Negative liberty are disambiguated and properly represented in terms of the broader reasons why positive liberty keeps being deleted and/or the definition changed to reflect the involvement of free will-- there's a broader philosophical argument that dwells beneath this dispute about definitions and who gets to decide. It's worth discussing in detail to understand what's at stake here. That's why I started this conversation-- to discuss the issues. Edunoramus (talk) 21:31, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • And to be clear, we have not yet reached consensus on this talk page. Edunoramus (talk) 21:42, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This is not the place for substantive hair-splitting in those philosophical/ideological topics. You perhaps are looking for Talk:Liberty or Talk:Positive liberty or Talk:Negative liberty or Talk:Two Concepts of Liberty or perhaps even Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Philosophy or Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Politics. older ≠ wiser 21:50, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
And yet that is precisely what you are engaging in. older ≠ wiser 22:02, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Clarification of differing perspectives on Liberty seems more fitting for Liberty than the disambiguation page that already links there, no? Mous3kteer (talk) 22:04, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Personally, I feel it is important for the definitions to reflect two sides of the argument. On one side, we have the known definition of liberty : "freedom from restraint" but, on the other side-- we have the need for a definition that reflects the notion that social justice is a major part of equality, and in this case, liberty is not a synonym for a lack of obstacles, but being able to grasp those obstacles, to discuss and work to overcome them. Edunoramus (talk) 22:09, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • But this definition has only represented one side of the argument. Here's how it works, I aim to talk about free will versus determinism, and then, I highlight the free-will side and, then substantively downplay the determinism side when in reality, Determinism is a complete topic unto itself: Free_will_and_determinism, notice how this redirected only to "free will", herein, lies the problem. Edunoramus (talk) 22:24, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ok. As an example of the reality of the broader contentiousness here, I will change the Free_will_and_determinism link to point only to Determinism and, we'll so how quickly another edit war breaks out. Edunoramus (talk) 22:32, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also, this is worth reviewing because I think it pertains to the conversation we are having: [pages|Disambiguation pages] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Edunoramus (talk • contribs) 22:48, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • While I personally think that redirect has an obvious choice in the fact that the Free Will page discusses the implied question of "does free will exist?" much more comprehensively than the Determinism page does, I think that starts to get off-topic for this talk page. That can be discussed further on those pages. I don't see how that affects whether the disamiguation page for Liberty contains article-level discussion of philosophies that are already covered on the main Liberty page. Mous3kteer (talk) 22:54, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I disagree. I don't think the Free will page substantively covers the topic of Determinism and, that's my point. It's not off-topic, it's connected to the broader issue at hand; the people here that really care about promoting the free-will perspective ([[1]]) are watching these articles closely. Therefore, the [point of view|Neutral point of view] is absent in articles relating to the broader context of never-to-be-settled free-will versus determinism argument. Edunoramus (talk) 23:06, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • This isn't an article. This is a page that deals with someone searching the word "liberty", and what page to send them to. If they wanted information on the concept of liberty, there's the Liberty page; if they wanted the shoe company, there's the Liberty Shoes page. Any finer discussion seems to me to belong on the respective pages, not this one. Mous3kteer (talk) 23:16, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes. I agree that the finer points should be discussed on the page itself, but the definition on the disambiguation page shouldn't imply that the definition is settled; it's not. What I added was deleted, "... have the power and resources to fulfill one's purposes" and, what was added there and was able to remain ("a right or immunity enjoyed by prescription or by grant") further supports the concept of negative liberty; all this further substantiates this is a problem and it is a NPOV problem. You all just collectively doubled down on proving your point, instead of listening to what I am saying. This is a war over meaning, I get it. And, I understand how the world works. I look forward to furthering our conversations here.
  • Again, you're not getting it. But, it's ok. We'll sort it out. BTW-- older ≠ wiser, makes no sense to me. I know what wisdom is... Talk soon. Edunoramus (talk) 01:03, 7 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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