Talk:Blue at the Mizzen

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Move to Blue at the Mizzen

Support. Unnecessary disambiguation. grendel|khan 21:25, 2005 May 6 (UTC)
Neutral to Don't Move Some of O'Brian's titles require disambiguation and it seems reasonable to have a certain consistency in the page titles with the added (novel) after all of them. Given that I am not completely set on that. Dabbler 23:05, 6 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Blue at the Mizzen currently redirects to Aubrey-Maturin series and looking at the relevant timestamps, this move template is a little old. Removing template, but feel free to add another move request if the need arises. --Lox (t,c) 09:30, 5 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"No basis for IP change" from Broad pennant to flag

Hi, Prairieplant, I'd like to discuss your reversion of my change. You said that there was no basis for my replacement of the phrase "broad pennant" with "flag" in this edit. If you take a look at our article for broad pennant, you'll see that it says: A broad pennant is a triangular swallow-tailed naval pennant flown from the masthead of a warship afloat or a naval headquarters ashore to indicate the presence of ... a Royal Navy officer in the rank of Commodore. Obviously, Wikipedia itself is not a reliable source, but other sources confirm this usage: the Oxford reference describes a broad pennant as A swallow-tailed pennant, flown from the masthead, and in most navies the distinguishing flag of a commodore. The Royal Museums Greenwich similarly describes proad pennats as belonging to commodores, not admirals, and other websites, as well. This is also discussed several times in the Aubrey-Maturin novels, as well; the language "broad pennant" is only ever used to refer to a commodore's command, not an admiral's.

If you disagree with my removal "blue at the mizzen", that's totally okay, of course; I feel that it's too close to the line in the book, but I'm not fussed about it. But right now, I think the article is objectively wrong, so we should reinstate the change from "broad pennant" to "flag" when we can. Thanks, 208.58.209.24 (talk) 00:33, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Please read the Title section of the article. Blue at the Mizzen is the title of the book, and reflects the practices of the RN at that time in history. - - Prairieplant (talk) 00:41, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

At that time in history, that is, soon after the defeat of Napoleon at Waterloo. - - Prairieplant (talk) 00:42, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Prairieplant: ... Yes, I'm aware of that; I have read them. But I don't think broad pennants referred to admirals in Napoleonic times, either. Like I said, the books themselves certainly refer to admirals as having flags, not pennants, and everything I've read bears that out. Do you know differently? 208.58.209.24 (talk) 01:54, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

On this topic, I cede to the author's knowledge of the times, over yours. Further, sources current today will define terms as they are in use today, so you need sources from the period in which the book was written, and those sources exist, some of them on line. In earlier books in the series, it was a discussion of broad pennant versus broad pendant, as the author used the latter term. In resolving that as not being a typo by a publisher on either side of the Atlantic Ocean, we came to realize how the use of terms change over time, even 200 years ago, and how those changes were picked by O'Brian in his writing of this series of books. And as to pinging, I cannot ping you as an IP, but you have pinged me, as I have an account. --Prairieplant (talk) 07:20, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Prairieplant: You're not paying attention to what I'm saying. I just finished re-reading the books from The Thirteen-Gun Salute to Blue at the Mizzen (which is why I was at this article to begin with), and what I'm telling you is that, in the books, O'Brian never uses the term "broad pennant" to refer to an admiral's flag. In the books, it is only used to refer to a commodore's. The current Wikipedia use of the term goes against both what I understand to be the historical usage and against the usage of the author, which as you correctly state is more important. This usage of "broad" pennant" to refer to an admiral's flag is a purely Wikipedia invention, and as far as I can tell, it is incorrect both in a historical context and in context of the books. 208.58.209.24 (talk) 12:50, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If you absolutely must have a (roughly) contemporary source: British flags says that in the King's Regulations of 1806, we find that There shall be a temporary rank of Commodore which shall be distinguished by a Broad Pendant. The broad pennant is the mark of a commodore, not an admiral, even in Napoleonic times. 208.58.209.24 (talk) 16:32, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Prairieplant: any thoughts? Sorry, I don't mean to be a pest about this. I just like these books a lot--I devoured them as a kid and I continue hold quite a bit of fondness for them--and I'd like to fix errors that I see; I don't want to forget about this one. If you don't respond in a day or so, I'm going to just assume that my point has been made, and reinstate the change from "broad pennant" to "flag", leaving alone the "blue at the mizzen" title drop. Thanks, 208.58.209.24 (talk) 13:49, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

All the editors who watch this page, and those on all the other books in the series care very much about the books. I do not agree with your change, and do not think you have presented any reason to change from the working that matches the book title, and the term that the author uses, which is broad pennant, not flag. I cannot ping you, and I had some real life to live last week, not aware you set deadlines when operating as an IP. Please do use your account. As an IP, your changes have much less weight, and setting a time limit is not cool. --Prairieplant (talk) 16:05, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, I think this could benefit from more discussion. On pages 260-261 of the HarperCollins hardback BM, Aubrey is ordered to " ... go aboard HMS Implacable, hoisting your flag, blue at the mizzen and take command of the blue squadron." I haven't read the book recently so I can't recall if 'pennant' is used anywhere else, but the order refers only to a 'flag'. That is also consistent with Smyth's Sailor's Word Book which defines "Broad pennant" as "A swallow-tailed piece of buntin [sic] at the masthead of a man-of-war; the distinctive mark of a Commodore", and in the definition of "Admiral" it discusses the colour and position of the 'flag' for each type, with no mention of 'pennant'. So far as I can see, O'Brian doesn't mention the hoisting of any type of pennant at this point, and the 'broad pennant' of the plot summary may well simply be a mistake. MichaelMaggs (talk) 17:05, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@User:Prairieplant: First of all: As an IP, your changes have much less weight is completely false. IP editors are no less valid than named editors whatsoever, and editors with an account have no inherent special privilege over IP editors when it comes to content editing. In fact, the reason that I'm not switching to my account is that IP editors are less anonymous than named editors, as connecting my IP address to my named account would be revealing the personal information inherent in the IP address, and I don't want to mess up three pages' edit histories by rev-deleting my IP address.

Second of all: What you're saying has no basis in reality. The title of the book is "Blue at the Mizzen"--it does not mention a broad pennant at all, so I don't know why you think my change doesn't match the title. The title is completely irrelevant to my point. As I've said multiple times, and as MichaelMaggs confirms (thank you, MichaelMaggs), the author does *not* use the term broad pennant to refer to an admiral's flag anywhere in this book. My copy of the book is a Norton Paperback, and the direct line from the book, on pages 260 and 261, is: Immediately upon receipt of the present order you will proceed to the River Plate, there joining the South African squadron: you will go aboard HMS Implacable, hoisting your flag, blue at the mizzen and take command of the blue squadron. Flag, not broad pennant. I can take a picture of the book and show it to you if you still don't believe me, although that's probably troubled waters, copyright-wise.

Third of all, do not think you have presented any reason to change is blatantly wrong. I have presented a reason for change--that is, that "broad pennant" is neither the term used in the book nor in actual history. You might not agree with the change--for no reason I can fathom other than sheer stubbornness--but that's not the same as not having a reason at all. 208.58.209.24 (talk) 20:32, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Prairieplant: Do you have any input on what MichaelMaggs and I have said above? I know you think setting time limits isn't cool, and that's kind of fair, but it's also not cool to just ignore a discussion, rather than contributing to it, while still reverting changes to the article itself. You've definitely edited Wikipedia several times since the last post here, so it doesn't seem like you don't have time to contribute. 208.58.209.24 (talk) 14:53, 2 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

MichaelMaggs, if you think the phrasing should be changed in the plot summary, then please go ahead. Too many words spilled over part of a sentence, in my view. - - Prairieplant (talk) 17:29, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you.

Done. MichaelMaggs (talk) 18:42, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]