Talk:Iron palm

Internal

• Douglasdanger(unkown user): Your statement does not add or dispute anything that I have added to the article, from "Internal Iron Palm" on down. All you are disputing is that you do not like it. I have trained in Boxing, Savate, and now Kung Fu, and I would stack my knowledge against anyone. If you have a legitimate dispute on points in the article then state them. I don't even see any reason to parlay with a no reason posted to why you have issues with this article.

The Warrior. --The Warrior 21:37, 11 Jan 2006 (UTC)

Bullshido

This article is all fanboyism and Bullshido. --Aesopian 21:37, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I disagree...I've been practicing the martial arts for over a dozen years, and hold three black belts. I know very little about kung fu, and even less about iron palm, but I've seen its mention in many books and magazines I would consider reputable. The relatively brief description in this article is consistent with what I've read. I will agree that reputable training in the style seems rare and hard to find.--MikeJ9919 05:59, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

Bullshido.net by itself is a big bullshit in Martial Art world. They like to describe anything they don't understand as Bullshido. Well, does that mean they are expert in everything and anything that they don't know is bullshit? This is the biggest Bullshido I've ever seen. Be humble and acknowledging their ignorance is the first thing bullshido.net guys need to do.

Bullshido aside, the tone of the entry is totally inappropriate (No NPOV). I've written somthing a little better, but still lacking. I know I can dig up some pictures of truly impressive breaking skills, and I'd like to find some written references to different iron palm systems. I know I have found books purporting to contain iron palm techniques, but I don't normally have the money to shell out to review them and find out. Perhaps a list of books and videos claiming to teach iron palm would be enough? The net is not a particually deep source of martial arts knowledge, unfortunatly. I know I can also track down some more breaking competions, and a history section would be nice as well. Does anyone know of any well researched histories of iron palm? I don't want to just quote my own styles oral history. --Dsrogers 19:17, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Introduction, article quality

I just read the intro to the article and this is by far the worst article ever. "The first is to strengthen the hand. This can be achieved by repeatedly striking hard objects, breaking the bones in the hands so they heal back thicker, or chemically treating the hands, usually with plant derivatives." BREAK THE BONES? What are you mad? --84.217.118.169 22:03, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

I did not write the introduction. My contribution is from the "Internal Iron Palm" to the end. I left the intro because I did not write it, so someone else can change it as I believe in debating the issue before I make changes. The Warrior

What about if in this world there are really some (mad) people who really try to break their bone in a controlled way because they believe the healing process well create a harder hand. Are you meaning that an article describing these mad people must be the "worst article ever". Who are mad? The writer of the article, the people doing this, or the one who criticise the article as mad? -Unsigned

How to

Good job guys! You have successfully taken a how-to article and broke it down so that the reader will not have a clue of what Iron Palm training is all about. The Warrior. --The Warrior 21:37, 11 Jan 2006 (UTC)

Really? Then I'm proud. It might interest you to know that Wikipedia is not an instruction manual. Aside from that, there's no verified evidence whatsoever to suggest that article will teach you "how-to" do anything, except maybe inflicting permanent damage to your hands and poisoning yourself with homemade brews not evaluated by the FDA.--Halloween jack 17:35, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Republican philosophy: if we don't understand something - or don't want to take the time practice it - we call it a lie! Wikipedia is suppose to expose people to new things and act as an online database of information - with a buyer beware attitide. If you want to protect everyone then remove all the articles on techniques - period. If someone is stupid enough to punch a bag of steel shot full force without gradually building up to it, then you cannot protect that kind of person from themselves no matter what you refrain from publishing. Today, the article does not even cover one's approach to hand conditioning - a neccessary part of traditional Kung Fu. So the Iron Palm page makes Kung Fu look weak and secretive like the movies.

I am not going to attempt to change it. If the wikipedia martial arts community wants to attempt to publish the same old mystical garbage that other websites already have available - as well as curb free expression of training taught in other systems - then I have no choice but to let the second rate articles exist and continue on. I was hoping that the Martial art's community on wikipedia was free of rightwing politics, and was willing to exchange and debate new ideas, but as you can see strip mall martial art classes are alive and well. I am not saying that I am an expert on anything that I have published, but I was willing to debate and exchange ideas without butchering other people's work and expression of ideas. I have never taken the egotistical approach of calling one's ideas harmful to society. I guess I give the reader more credit for making their own judgement based on logical deduction - the throw out what is useless approach!

This is some of the dumbest shit I've ever read. B.F. Skinner was a right-wing fanatic, I guess? Robert Boyle? Francis Bacon? Stop projecting; this has nothing the fuck to do with politics; it has everything to do with verifiability, checking your sources, and the scientific method. The vast, vast majority of "Iron Palm" tradition consists of folklore, legend, and hearsay that has no solid evidence to back it up. Many of the claims I've read about (like the idea that practicing Iron Palm without performing chi kung will cause "bad chi" to accumulate in your organs and make you go blind) are outright bunk.

Wikipedia is supposed to be a database of information, but not an indiscriminate collection of myth, folklore, "conventional wisdom," rumours, or outright lies. If you want Wikipedia to do that, then there's no need to even have Wikipedia, because you can dig up any amount of unverified and unverifiable junk just by doing a Google search. It's a fucking encyclopedia! Would you buy a set of encyclopedias if the salesman told you he just put in everything that everyone told him, without bothering to do any research or cite any sources, and that it's your responsibility to double-check the dates, facts, and figures? Of course not; that defeats the whole purpose of owning an encyclopedia.

And if you think that dismissing unverified claims is a Republican philosophy, I suggest you read the article on truthiness. --Halloween jack 14:35, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Your use of profanity on this forum where families and children do research shows the class of the verifiable statement above! As you can see above - all ego and crude opinions are a substitute for an open mind to new or old ideas. I published a website for a major Chicago Street gang - and let me tell you that the comments made on their message board are more intelligent and less crude than the martial arts forum on wikipedia - see the above statements. Also I have never felt an ounce of guilt over publishing that website. The Warrior

If I had children, I'd rather they read a profanity-laden book full of facts than a G-rated book filled with speculation, urban legends and outright lies. I feel no guilt whatsoever regarding what I've written above. So do you actually have an argument against my reasons for editing the article in accordance with Wikipedia policy, or are you just resorting to ad hominem attacks because you realize that you've made a completely groundless claim that Wikipedia is "supposed" to be the academic equivalent of a junkyard? --Halloween jack 05:45, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Lets put it this way, you attacked my work, and I expected better from this forum. According to wikipedia standards you did not break any rules, and I did not break any rules expressing my feelings about your changes. So do I feel guilty telling you - absolutely not! By your low-class swearing you showed your true colors. I am happy that I did not have an immature meltdown like the one you did on an open forum.

When I added to the Iron Palm article - I left the original post out of respect to the author. The original article was vague - so I added the Internal Iron Palm section to the existing article to explain what I had learned from my teacher. I cannot expect anyone with a mouth like yours to show as much class in return. Have you done any real research on the Iron Palm? If so, do you call Brian Gray and Sifu John Allen (Green Dragon Studio of Stow Ohio) fakes? I did not break any rules making my opinions known - as you did not by swearing other than making your argument look like it came from the gutter. Your opinions are biased, and no one with half a brain can combat a biased attitude. The Warrior

I have no idea whether or not the men you named are fakes, but I do know that the claims that were previously made in the article have not been independently verified by people who don't make money by selling Iron Palm training. They remain in the realm of folklore and speculation, and should not be listed as accepted fact. I don't know what specific logic and reasoning those teachers offer for their training methods and equipment, but if they regularly make statements such as "liniment eliminates damaged tissue that excretes into the bloodstream" which are in opposition to accepted medical science, then their claims should not be placed in a Wikipedia article sans a disclaimer. In addition, the "instructions" you added were, as I said before, not in accordance with Wikipedia standards, and that's why I deleted them.

Oh, and given your phobia of anything that might scare children, you might want to avoid appealing to the authority of Brian Gray, who was arrested by Maryland police in connection to child-molestation charges.

As for the "immature meltdown," I'm actually having a good time. Hell, I get up early for this stuff. Once again, you have no real intellectual argument, just attempts to throw insults at me because I'm a naughty little boy with a dirty mouth. Do you have any reasoning or evidence to support your assertion that the article should be turned into an instruction manual on Iron Palm training, based on your own opinions, or do you just want to call names? Put up, shut up, or better yet, grow up. --Halloween jack 21:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I think people should be able to read how iron palm was taught and come to their on conclusions if it is right for their training. It could contain a DISCLAIMER to make some people feel better. The articles I referenced were from INSIDE KUNG FU 2006 - which did a series of articles on Iron Palm methods including Brian Gray.

NOW IN RESPONSE TO YOUR PERSONAL ATTACKS: I am sure you do get up every morning with vasoline just to read my replies. Now if you are going to threaten me - leave your armchair warrior garbage to personal messages. That is where you should threaten or challenge me - not on this forum. Remember, people with nothing to say or little credibility use foul language to try and get their points across. I see you as someone who just likes to argue - like the drunk in a tavern. Have fun playing with yourself. jbutera 23:30, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm not really interested in "challenging" you. To what? An epic kung fu battle? Anyways, at this point I don't even know what you're talking about. What content in the article do you want restored? If you don't have a problem with a disclaimer, why do you object to the article being edited to reflect the fact that the supposed benefits of Iron Palm are, in fact, only suppositions? Regarding the "instruction manual" junk, do you really want people trying to teach themselves complicated kung fu methods with help from the Internet? The article already contains enough information to give anyone interested in Iron Palm enough of an overview that they can seek out a teacher if they want to learn, and we've already covered the fact that it is Wikipedia policy not to make an article into an instruction manual-a point you've completely failed to address, instead choosing to fake outrage over my use of profanity in order to gloss over your inability to come up with a legitimate argument.--Halloween jack 23:24, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

"instead choosing to fake outrage over my use of profanity in order to gloss over your inability to come up with a legitimate argument." Yes, keep making excuses for your gutter language in response and your inability to debate a complicated issue without resulting to skidrow tactics. Your type lost big last Tuesday in the elections. --jbutera 23:30, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

1. I'd rather Wikipedia be full of foulmouthed assholes who can make a rational argument than full of people who can't do anything but whine about profane language and repeat the same tired, bogus arguments while being completely ignorant of how a Wikipedia article is supposed to be written. Perhaps you'd like Wikipedia to be a "clearinghouse" of hokum and hoodoo. The only clearinghouse out here is your foul lowclass mouth which is on sale in redneckville New York - who you trying to fool? You are a hero in your own mind and pretend hero on wikipedia. Look at how you responded in a foul fashion which was that of a WHINER and an IDIOT!
2. My "type" votes against politicians who, like certain Wikipedia editors, pretend to be squeaky-clean and wholesome but can't produce an insightful point or follow a sane policy to save their lives. I voted for Webb.

I least I bathe. Mybe you should wash your hole in your face out once in a while or quit drinking? You whining was proven on your first meltdown which was idiotic at best. You like to call people whiners - go back and reread your foul response and label it "I am a whiner at best!"

ITT Drama Queens —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.148.228.230 (talk) 23:20, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Location location location

Should the entire "How-to" section be moved to Wiki-Books or soemthing more appropriate? It doesn't seem to belong here at all. --Technotaoist 23:30, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

About Moving to how-to?

I don't know why it this article would not be in the martial arts/chinese kung fu category because Iron palm is training method within the kung fu system. This isn't like fixing a car or building a house, it is a legitimate part of kung fu training. -jbutera 23:30, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Merge

Hand training covers the same content with a more cross-style focus. I move to merge. VanTucky 00:02, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Delete 'Hand training'

Iron palm is hand conditioning true, but with so such more with internal traning (qi gong), the use of dit da jow. MT and karate guys do "hand conditioning" Iron Palm is a Chinese art all of its own. The hand conditioning page is weak with very little to no good information to add. IMHO--Duchamps_comb 02:05, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Added Reffimprove tag

While there are three sources cited, I feel more are needed since Iron Palm is a sensitive subject. So, I added an reffimprove tag. MastaFighta (talk) 05:55, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Palm versus Hand

This article treats the terms as synonymous. Is it possible that they are not, and that iron palm is a subset of iron hand training specifically for the palm, whereas iron hand would encapsulate things such as toughening the fingers and knuckles in addition to the palm? Honestly, doing weighted pushups seems like it'd build an 'iron palm' to me, but it wouldn't build the ability to do fingertip pushups which is specific to that strength, and performed in handstands by some shaolin. Tyciol (talk) 08:33, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Iron Palm and Iron Hand are the same thing. The fingers, knuckles, front and back of the hand are usually conditioned in Iron Palm. NJMauthor (talk) 06:42, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Internal vs External

In the "Direct and Indirect Methods" section, the following phrase needs some attention: "Some practitioners also refer to their training as Nei Jing ("internal") or Li ("external")..." Nei = Internal, Jing = Strength (trained strength used for a specific task), and Li = (untrained/clumsy/brute) Strength. I believe the appropriate counterpart to Nei Jing ("internal) would be Wai Jing ("external") like how Neijia means "internal martial arts/road/path" and Waijia means "external arts/road/path." 3rickZann (talk) 06:49, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

External links modified

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