Talk:Kentucky Derby

Lead development

I am confused by the line in the lead, "The race is run by three-year-old Thoroughbreds at a distance of 1 +1⁄4 miles (10 furlongs; 2,012 metres), the first time horses in the field race that distance." I don't know enough about this statement to make a change, but it looks like they are saying no 3 year old would have ever raced a distance of 1 1/4 miles. How would you guarantee that? StarHOG (Talk) 00:58, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

I have reviewed this. During a rework of the lead in May 2023, that clause was added but no citation was given for it. Without support from a reliable source, I have removed it. Thank you for bringing this to our attention. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 18:10, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Dates

The horseraces infobox that's used on this article should include spaces for the last race and the upcoming race, like they have for seasons in the sports league infobox. And it should include spaces for the dates of the last race and the upcoming race, like they have in the holiday infobox. I suggest we put the dates with the links to the articles for the last and upcoming races. I'd make that change myself, but it's extended-confirmed-protected. - Burner89751654 (talk) 18:44, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

This has crossed my mind as well. I have endorsed your idea over there, and if there are no objections there , I have the access and knowledge to implement the ideas. Let's see if there are any other responses for a while and then I'll proceed. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 19:14, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Most Exciting Two Minutes or Fastest Two Minutes?

There is reference to both of these titles in the introduction.

It seems the references stem from legendary sportswriter Grantland Rice's description of the event: "In 1935, legendary Tennessee-born sports writer Grantland Rice described the race. "Those two minutes and a second or so of derby running carry more emotional thrills, per second, than anything sport can show," he said. That phrase has since been shortened to describe the Kentucky Derby as 'the most exciting two minutes in sports.'" (trying to find original source)

I think "Fastest Two Minutes" references may just be incorrect nods to the "Most Exciting Two Minutes." "Fasest.." to me doesn't make sense, since 120 seconds is 120 seconds. The quote is meant to capture how much action is packed into that small window, I think. I'd like to consider removing the latter reference, or at least trying to better source its provenance. Sawitontwitter (talk) 15:12, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Sawitontwitter, sorry for the delay in replying, but I have just rewritten the second paragraph to hopefully cover what you're discussing here. "Fastest Two Minutes" does seems odd but I've found in source searches that it's one of three common alternate phrases used to describe the Derby outside of "The Run for the Roses". I've added two cites for each phrase but perhaps more would be useful. Also thank you for bringing up Rice's description, as that makes a very nice touch for the lead. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 03:47, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

I think that's much better, thanks! And no need to apologize--we all make changes and help out here as schedules allow! Sawitontwitter (talk) 20:03, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Oldest track?

Most everybody knows that's Saratoga, which opened in 1863 at the Oklahoma Track and 1864 for the current grandstand track. It has never moved since 1864 and is a thoroughbred track, unlike some tracks in the US which are even older but which are harness tracks. Making the statement that the Kentucky Derby is the oldest track or oldest sporting event is just so far from true, it's embarrassing to find it here. MorganDWright (talk) 05:25, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for bringing this to talk. What is in the article does not say that the Derby is the oldest track (Churchill Downs) or oldest sporting event. What it is talking about is that it's the oldest continuous, that it has been run every year without fail (only a couple postponements) since 1875. Unless you can contest this with a countervailing source, I see nothing to be embarrassed about. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 05:37, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Continuous? Saratoga grandstand track was built in 1864 and has been there continuously since. It was never torn down or rebuilt or moved, or mothballed, and even in the very few years the track didn't open for the summer, the Saratoga stakes races were held. Usually in Belmont. That makes them continuous. The Travers Stakes have been held since 1864, during WWII they were held in Belmont. This June, the Belmont stakes are being held in Saratoga because they're working on the track at Belmont! Same with 1896. Does that mean Belmont track is not continuous? We know it doesn't mean the Belmont Stakes is not continuous. Your article says the Kentucky Derby is the oldest event, but being continuous doesn't mean oldest. You're saying an event that started in 1875 is OLDER than one starting in 1864 just because it was run in Belmont during the 3 or 4 times it wasn't held in Saratoga, that means it's not continuous so that moved the original date away from 1864? Your article is simply wrong. And then you say the Kentucky Derby was cancelled but rescheduled the same year? But not the same month or week? Since when is "the same year" some sort of magical metric of making something "continuous". If it was cancelled and rescheduled, even the same year, then it is NOT continuous. Saratoga is closed every winter, that surely makes it "not continuous". It's closed at night, too. It's closed right now! The claim that the Kentucky Derby is the oldest, and then tossing in a lot of convoluted adjuncts that make it older than another track that actually IS older, and another stakes event, that is also older, or if you say something like it's the "oldest track that was never closed for WWII or run at another track for a world war, or cancelled, but if it was cancelled was rescheduled during the same calendar year but not month, week etc. etc," is just ridiculous. Saratoga is the oldest thoroughbred track and Travers Stakes is older than the Kentucky Derby, PERIOD. MorganDWright (talk) 11:31, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

As this subject and similar races are annual events, 'continuous' would mean that their race is held every year. Also, neither anyone or this article are saying that Churchill Downs is the oldest thoroughbred track and that the Kentucky Derby is the oldest race, period. What the article says is something different, and that something different is sourced. Subjects often have particular superlatives, but said superlatives are not meant to subtract from any other subject's superlatives. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 18:05, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

I also meant to note that in Travers Stakes, it says "The race was not run in 1896, 1898, 1899, 1900, 1911, and 1912." Alternatively, the Kentucky Derby has run for 150 years straight. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 09:15, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Note that in the Saratoga Race Course article, it says "The course was closed in 1896 due to increasing competition among thoroughbred tracks, making the meet at Saratoga not viable that season. Anti-gambling legislation, which had passed in New York, resulted in a cessation in all thoroughbred racing in that state during 1911 and 1912." According to that, it missed 3 years. The Kentucky Derby missed zero years. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 05:46, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

I just found out, Belmont Stakes, Alabama Stakes, and Preakness Stakes are all older than the Kentucky Derby, but none claim to be the oldest this, that or the other thing, to weasel their way into stolen glory like your article does. The glory should go to Saratoga. MorganDWright (talk) 11:56, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Taking Belmont Stakes as an example, all it took was a google search to turn up "Belmont Park has hosted the annual horse racing event dating back to 1905. There was also a five-year stretch of races at the Aqueduct, but the Belmont Stakes has been held at Belmont Park every year since 1968." There is no "stolen glory" here. Just a fact backed up by a source. Again, if you have countervailing sources that shows any horse race besting any of the superlatives in the article, I'd be happy to take a look at them. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 18:08, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

But the fact being backed up is a nonsense fact with fine print. "Kentucky Derby is the oldest sporting event of any kind in the USA ˢᵒ ˡᵒⁿᵍ ᵃˢ ʸᵒᵘ ᵈᵒⁿ'ᵗ ᶦⁿᶜˡᵘᵈᵉ ᵒˡᵈᵉʳ ˢᵖᵒʳᵗᶦⁿᵍ ᵉᵛᵉⁿᵗˢ ᵗʰᵃᵗ ʷᵉʳᵉ ˢᵏᶦᵖᵖᵉᵈ ᶠᵒʳ ᵃ ʷᵒʳˡᵈ ʷᵃʳ ᵒʳ ʰᵉˡᵈ ᵃᵗ ᵃⁿᵒᵗʰᵉʳ ᵛᵉⁿᵘᵉ ᶠᵒʳ ᵃ ʸᵉᵃʳ ᵒʳ ᵗʰᶦˢ ᵒʳ ᵗʰᵃᵗ ᵇᵒᵍᵘˢ ʳᵉᑫᵘᶦʳᵉᵐᵉⁿᵗ ᵃⁿᵈ ʷᵉ ʷᵒⁿ'ᵗ ᵉᵛᵉⁿ ᵐᵉⁿᵗᶦᵒⁿ ᵗʰᵒˢᵉ ᵒˡᵈᵉʳ ᵉᵛᵉⁿᵗˢ ᶦⁿ ⁿᵒʳᵐᵃˡ ˢᶦᶻᵉ ᵖʳᶦⁿᵗ ᵇᵉᶜᵃᵘˢᵉ ʷᵉ ᵃʳᵉ ᵇᵃˢᶦᶜᵃˡˡʸ ˡʸᶦⁿᵍ" MorganDWright (talk) 12:28, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

OK I see the edit you made to the article and like it. Good job, carry on the good work. MorganDWright (talk) 12:36, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

This discussion did spark me to copyedit the content for clarity. It's a big reason why Talk discussions are very helpful to Wikipedia. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 17:36, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Before continuing down the road of seemingly disruptive edits to make some kind of WP:POINT, here in Talk is where we discuss passages in the content that may not be entirely clear. What you are removing is backed up by a secondary, reliable source. If there's a better way to phrase it, I'm all ears. In the sentence "The Derby and the Oaks are the oldest annually held major sporting events in the US, as well as the oldest thoroughbred stakes races held annually in the same location since their beginning." - the first part says "in the US"; the second part does not. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 18:32, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

MorganDWright, your edits to the lead of the article are verging on the WP:TENDENTIOUS. If you have a counter-claim, you need to bring a countervailing reliable source here. You cannot simply state an opinion and change the article. It seems increasingly clear you have an animus toward this subject, but you should be aware we cannot insert our personal biases in articles. The current text reflects the source. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 17:39, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Your edits to this article are verging on violating the 3RR which is a form of "WP:WAR". The sentence in question, which I corrected, contained two statements separated by a comma, both of which only become true when the condition at the end of the second statement is given to both statements. I combined the two statements into one so the condition applies to both parts of the sentence, and now you made it worse by making it into two sentences:

"The Derby and the Oaks are the oldest annually held major sporting events in the US. Among thoroughbred stakes races, they are the oldest that have been held on the same track since the beginning"

As it's written, the first sentence is read as being independent of the condition (being held every year on the same track since the beginning) applying to it. The way it's written is simply wrong. It's not a matter of opinion or personal bias, it's factually incorrect. The reference given is simply "The Encyclopedia of Louisville" without scan of the printed text, and unless I take a drive to Louisville and find this publication, it's impossible to cross reference it, but it doesn't matter because I told you of 4 other major sporting events that are older but without that above mentioned condition. Facts are facts. The Kentucky Derby is NOT the oldest annually held major sporting event, it is the oldest annually held major sporting event held at the same location every year since the beginning. The way you wrote it is simply false information, and you are the one being WP:TENDITIOUS. MorganDWright (talk) 18:57, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

There is no WP:3RR violation here. Please avoid falsely charging others. Also, the text as of my last edit is correct based on the source. You cannot say something is false by your personal opinion. We go by sources. Also see WP:VNT. The source provided says the following verbatim: "The Derby and the Kentucky Oaks are the oldest continuously contested American sporting events and the only Thoroughbred stakes race run annually at the same site since their inception in 1875." If you would like access to this source, you can find it at a library or purchase it, obviously, or you can access it online by joining The Wikipedia Library and getting access to Project MUSE. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 19:06, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Also, I continue to invite you to bring a countervailing reliable source to back up any position that goes against what is stated in the article. Without that, there really isn't anything pertinent to discuss. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 19:14, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Your wording is not backed up by the reference. Your statement is that it's the oldest annually held, the reference says it's the oldest continuous. Those mean different things. The 4 older events I listed are older and annually held, but not continuous because they skipped a year or 2 during world wars, etc. Please reword it so it's correct. MorganDWright (talk) 19:22, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

It's already fine as it is. You are making a strained claim. 'Continuous' for the purposes of an annual stakes race means "held every year". If a year is missed, it is broken up, i.e. not continuous. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 19:27, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

I like your recent edits and compromise. Keep up the good work. MorganDWright (talk) 19:13, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

References