Talk:Josiah Wedgwood

Josiah Wedgwood II

see Darwin -- Wedgwood family; is this chap notable enough to have his own article, suggests he was elected to parliament? If so, I can't google the information, so need help! Dunc_Harris|☺ 14:26, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

See [1]; [2] Andy Mabbett 14:38, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

minor error that I don't know how to correct.

I'm not sure how to edit some of the info but the comments at the beginning of the articles on Josiah Wedgwood (the founder of the company) and Josiah Wedgwood (the first Lord Wedgwood) state that the latter is the great grandson of the former. In fact he is the great, great grandson of the former though he is the great grandson of the second, and less well known, Josiah Wedgwood.

Citing Facts

As amusing as this is, it seems a bit odd, so I think it should be cited: "Wedgwood's work was of very high quality (when visiting his workshop, if he saw an offending vessel that failed to meet with his standards, he would smash it with his stick, exclaiming, "This will not do for Josiah Wedgwood!")."--209.247.22.104 20:13, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. There seems to be some vandalism on this page: 'smash it with his head, exclaiming, "This will not do for my pet fish gerome!"). Wedgwood was also keenly interested in the scientific advances of california snakes his day and it was this interest that underpinned his adoption of its approach and methods to revolutionize the quality of his home and car interior desighning.'; and later under references 'Wedgwood: The First Tycoon, cat with frisbee, Viking Adult, 416 pp. (October 7, 2004).' Having read the book, I do not recall those phrases. Genericdefect 22:41, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

There is serious doubt about this story; and we know for a fact that he did a considerable trade in seconds. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bradslk (talk • contribs) 07:34, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

Consumate sales operative

According to this NYT op-ed, http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/10/opinion/10flanders.html?th&emc=th, JW was a tremendous innovator in sales and marketing, inventing such things as door-to-door sales. Kdammers (talk) 11:52, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

image not that of the medallion

Strictly speaking the picture claiming to be the Wedgwood anti-slavery medallion isn't but rather a different depiction of the image that went on the medallion. A picture of the actual medallion can be found at http://statevillespeaksloyola.wordpress.com/images-of-prisoners/anti-slavery-medallion-josiah-wedgewood-1787/ however, we can't just copy it as the copyright status of the picture is not known. Someone probably should find a legit picture. --Erp (talk) 00:04, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Darwin's Grandfather

I find this a bit odd:

He was the grandfather of Emma Darwin, Charles Darwin's wife.

Was he not also the grandfather of Charles Darwin, Emma Darwin's husband? 62.84.16.25 (talk) 21:07, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Bias

There's a line in the section about his work that says "He was the greatest potter that ever lived." Now I know that in these things, it all comes down to subjectivity. Nobody can say for sure, as there are many different criteria for what would quantify a best potter.

I don't know what the tag is for bias on this, but the tag should definitely be placed on this article.

174.56.153.240 (talk) 05:45, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Actually it states he was perhaps the most famous potter of his time. Which is subjective but hedged and I think supportable. --Erp (talk) 13:38, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Pyrometric beads

According to the Pyrometric cone article, Wedgewood invented the pyrometric bead (forerunner of the modern cone), but there is no article for the beads. I tried to make it redirect -- I have submitted a request. If anyone knows how to do it easily, please make a redirect? 70.76.64.89 (talk) 22:50, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Sarah's nickname

Wasn't Sarah Wedgwood nicknamed "Sukey"? 76.190.213.189 (talk) 03:18, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

No, that was his eldest daughter Susannah. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:06, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Unitarian

This book source says that he was "an ardent Unitarian" and also says that some of his family were? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:52, 2 January 2024 (UTC) p.s. he still has Category:English Unitarians

User:Martinevans123 Context please! You are always doing this, which is annoying for others, and unproductive for you. What does the article say? Am I supposed to search through it? Johnbod (talk) 17:51, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Apologies, I was responding to this recent removal, by User:dave souza and should have named him directly. As far as I can see that was the only mention of "Unitarian" in the main body of the article. I'm sorry to say I am not familiar with any of the biographies on Wedgewood. If you are familiar with them perhaps you could advise on how much prominence his Unitarianism, or religious views in general, might be warranted in this article? Martinevans123 (talk) 17:57, 2 January 2024 (UTC) Really, I am always doing this? This is all I ever do?? How many others is this annoying to, exactly? Have you taken a vote, or just a rough headcount? Thanks.

It does mention his family were English dissenters. He was probably named after his maternal grandfather, Josiah Stringer, who was a dissenting minister. His elder sister, Catherine, also married a dissenting minister, William Willets (or Willet), of Newcastle under Lyme. Note being unitarian was not respectable and meeting for unitarian worship was officially illegal. The first openly Unitarian chapel didn't exist until the 1770s (see Wedgwood's friend, Joseph Priestley, and Theophilus Lindsey) though the existence of unitarians pre-dated that point. Not until the Doctrine of the Trinity Act 1813 did Unitarians receive the same legal toleration as other Protestant dissenters from the Church of England. Adding information about his religious beliefs would require a look at some of his biographies. Erp (talk) 17:35, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, these are good points. My edit summary referred to the "Early life' section: no mention in cited source of "grandson of a Unitarian minister and was an active Unitarian', contradicts other sources. The timing of Wedgwood becoming Unitarian is unclear, and needs a source, but it's significant that Unitarianism was followed by subsequent generations of Darwins and Wedgwoods: I'll add a source for that below. . . dave souza, talk 20:03, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

"Timing" may be a bit tricky. He may have been raised in the beliefs. The DNB entry has "Scarcely anything is known of Josiah's childhood. He was brought up in the thatched Churchyard house and pottery, which Thomas Wedgwood had inherited from his father, and began his education at about the age of six, walking the 7 miles round trip to attend a small school in Newcastle under Lyme. His mother was the daughter of the Unitarian minister at Newcastle under Lyme, and she brought up her children in the same faith." (Reilly, Robin (2004-09-23). "Wedgwood, Josiah (1730–1795), master potter". Oxford Dictionary of National Biography. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-861412-8. Retrieved 2024-01-02.) I think "Unitarian" may be a bit anachronistic but the Unitarian Meeting House, Newcastle-under-Lyme still exists. Note his grandfather, the minister at Newcastle-under-Lyme (possibly, there seems to be a lack of primary sources, the meeting house had been destroyed by a mob in 1715), had died in 1698; the minister for most of Josiah's life was William Willet (minister from 1727-76) who married as his second wife, Catherine Wedgwood in 1754 (see also the Meeting House's history page https://www.newcastlestaffsunitarians.co.uk/location under "historical events"). Erp (talk) 23:34, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks Erp, that's very useful. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:46, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, a look at some of his biographies would be a very good idea. But if Dunford (2022) describes him as "an ardent Unitarian", I suspect there is some substance to that claim. Meanwhile I'll remove the Category. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:49, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

The category is appropriate and should be restored – "Alongside respectable Anglicanism, Unitarianism was another important religious tradition in the Darwin and Wedgwood families. Josiah Wedgwood, who was grandfather to both Charles and Emma, was a Unitarian, and this religious background helped to bring the provincial families, the Darwins and Wedgwoods, together in the first place."[3] . . .dave souza, talk 20:03, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Many thanks Dave for the information above. I'd say the category should be restored once there is material in the article to support it. That University of Cambridge source looks very useful. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:41, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

• The Dolan biography certainly confirms that JW was raised in the U tradition (pp 40-41, 51-52) by his mother, and was the grandson of a U minister, but his later mentions are rather equivocal as to what JW believed in later life, bearing in mind that U was not exactly an organized denomination until JW was well into middle age. At the same time JW's father bought a CofE family pew for £7 - quite a lot - which the young JW presumably sat in (Genius catalogue, p. 45; date not given, but he died in 1739). Perhaps neither subject nor biographer are very interested in religion. Johnbod (talk) 17:42, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

  Of perhaps it was just the biographer? Thanks for the very useful research. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:09, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

  Except it was his grandfather, also a Thomas Pease, who bought the pew on or before 1700 (A History of the Wedgwood Family, by J C Wedgwood, 1908, page 126-7, citing Metreyard "the Life of Josiah Wedgwood", vol. I, page 193). According to the latter he was a churchwarden. The dissenting strain seems to be from JW's mother. Erp (talk) 03:13, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks all, rather a slog getting this in order. I've added the point about the pew, the dissenting evidently came via JW's mother, and was brought to the fore again by Wiliam Willet, minister of Newcastle-under-Lyme Meeting House, who became JW's brother in law in 1754, and not long after that spent many days helping JW study while recovering from knee problems. The meeting house was then English Presbyterian, Unitarian naming was still uncommon.[4] Its earlier preacher "Rev. George Long, former minister of St. Giles's Church, Newcastle-under-Lyme for example had to seek refuge in Holland, where he studied medicine at Leyden University and took his M.D. Degree." .... "Unitarianism as such was in fact illegal by an Act of 1698 .... At Newcastle-under-Lyme, the [1715] riot was engineered by the Mayor with a signal from the bell of the parish Church. The Mayor and two Justices of the Peace helped to foment the riot and drink was distributed amongst the mob. .. . William Willett who married the sister of Iosiah Wedgwood, the potter, had a ministry of 49 years at Newcastle (1727-1776)" [5] Later, JW allegedly "became a follower of Priestley",[6] timing of that is still unclear to me. ... . . dave souza, talk 19:22, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

  Great stuff, Dave. It's becoming a bit clearer now. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:30, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

  JW was definitely a friend of Priestley and supplied him with money and scientific equipment (ceramic ware). According to Metreyard (vol 1. page 309), they seem to have met in 1762 though Bentley and JW's brother-in-law, Willet, may have informed each about the other beforehand. JW and his wife were married in a CoE church in 1764 but that was necessary at that time for a legal wedding (unless the couple were Jewish or Quaker or wedding outside England/Wales) so no indication of his religious beliefs (other than he was not Quaker or Jewish). Erp (talk) 20:21, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

  Even today marriages by Unitarian churches in the UK are not legally recognsed? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:36, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

  Note English law is different from Scottish law in regards to marriage, at that point in time in Scotland to wed you just had to announce you were husband and wife in front of witnesses and you were married (assuming both parties were single). The laws changed in the 1830s to allow other religious groups in England/Wales who owned a building to perform legal weddings (the building has to be licensed for the purpose and a person has to be responsible to register the marriage and report it to the right authorities) so Unitarian churches in England can and do perform weddings (the statement in the wiki article is that other Christian denominations don't recognize the marriages which I think is false [that most don't recognize their baptisms is true]).

  Back to the main question. What evidence is there for JW being a Unitarian instead of just a Trinitarian dissenter? I guess one can also look at the Warrington Academy where JW sent his eldest son. Erp (talk) 04:36, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

  Metreyard describes Willet as the Unitarian minister as of 1776, D & M refer to Wedgwood as unitarian; I've seen other sources . . . dave souza, talk 09:55, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Metreyard Llewellynn Jewitt :[7] Wedgwood's Religious Views And Character p. 421 "In religion he vas a Unitarian, and was on intimate terms of friendship with Mr. Willet, the minister of the old Presbyterian Chapel at Newcastle, whose ministry he attended. His religious views, however, were never allowed to influence his actions,. whether of friendship or of business. He wisely felt that there was good in all, and that a man's religion was a question between his own conscience and his Maker, and not one on which commercial relationships or ties of friendship ought to hinge." . . . dave souza, talk 10:14, 7 January 2024 (UTC) < Jewitt correction 08:20, 8 January 2024 (UTC)>
Intriguing ... "Testator , E. Latham , W. Willets , R. Mansfield . " " At Lichfield , on the 25th day of October , 1739 , Administration ( with the Will annexed ) of the personal Estate and Effects of Thomas Wedgwood , deceased , was granted to Mary ..."[8] – suggests Mary Wedgwood in touch with Willet at the Newcastle meeting house. . dave souza, talk 11:46, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm confused by the cite to Meteyard as on page 421? It does not seem to be in either volume of her work. BTW I modified the reference to Meteyard's "The life of JW" in the entry to indicate two volumes and put in links to internet archive versions of each volume. I think he was a unitarian, but, I'm interested in the source(s). Willets also baptized all of John Wedgwood's children according to J.C. Wedgwood's "A History of the Wedgwood Family" (page 156) though his oldest child was born in 1760 so post JW's connection (John Wedgwood, 1705-1780, Big House, Burslem, second cousin once removed of JW and uncle of JW's wife, this was the relatively wealthy part of the family before JW made a fortune; see also http://www.thepotteries.org/walks/burslem/d.htm). Note Willets is a witness to the will (16 June 1739) so Thomas likely knew him beforehand though I agree the connection is through Mary Wedgwood. Erp (talk) 23:53, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Apologies!! The quote's from Jewitt (1865), have added a link. Thanks for sorting the internet archive sources, google's been very confusing about which volume.. . dave souza, talk 08:20, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Map

I wonder whether a map would be useful. I note the one at http://www.thepotteries.org/photos/map1798.htm which a subsection of one from 1798 (Yates). Notably it includes Burslem, Etruria, Newcastle-under-Lyne, and the Trent and Mersey Canal all of which are important in the bibliography (or for that matter the history of the potteries). A fuller version is at https://digitalarchive.mcmaster.ca/islandora/object/macrepo%3A81078 However I haven't checked out the copyright issues Erp (talk) 05:09, 8 January 2024 (UTC)