Talk:David Mason (trumpeter)

This article was nominated for deletion on 27 December 2008. The result of the discussion was keep.

Piccolo

I corrected the piccolo tpt transposition note. I am not sure that it was needed but if it is needed then it needs to be accurate - piccolo tpt in A is a major sixth higher than written, not an octave. Nevilley

the last paragraph

It seems pretty obvious that this needs to go, as this has nothing to do with anything important. This kid's ego-trip doesn't belong here, or anywhere, for that matter.

ProfessorFokker 08:36, 10 November 2005 (UTC)ProfessorFokker[reply]

Redirect

I feel that the redirect was a mistake. Mason is significant in his own right, not just as a footnote to the Beatles song. Sure, the article needs more, but removing it was not the way to fix it. 138.37.199.206 (talk) 12:17, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

i agree with what the person above said about mason being significant, the page just needs more substantial information. 24.147.236.116 (talk) 21:24, 27 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Commonplace vs innovative

I added back in "Although such piccolo trumpet solos are almost commonplace in some types of pop now, now this was seen as innovative at the time and was among the first such uses." Trouble is, though this is (I think) obvious to anyone who knows any pop, and thus useful to readers of the encyclopaedia who do not, I am not sure what evidential standard is required. Did anyone in any of these Beatles books say "gosh wow this had never been done before"? Otherwise we are left with negative proof, i.e. "cite me a pop song with a picc before PL?" which seems a bit useless ... Suggestions? DisillusionedBitterAndKnackered (talk) 22:49, 29 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Partly resolved: I found one, in the George Martin book, where he claims it's the first - and, arguably, he would know. A full chronology/discography of "every piccolo trumpet solo in pop music in the world ever" might take a tiny while longer ... :) DisillusionedBitterAndKnackered (talk) 12:20, 31 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Um...I am someone "who knows [some] pop"--quite a bit actually--, and your edit is not the slightest bit "obvious" to me. To this day, the only pop song I know with a prominent part for piccolo trumpet is "Penny Lane". Whether or not a "full" list of "'every piccolo trumpet solo in pop'" would take long, you'd better supply some examples if you want your edit to last. As for the other point: Certainly the solo in "Penny Lane" was unconventional in its day (and, as far as know, still), but unconventional is not the same as "innotative", which sounds to me POV, and George Martin is a retired record producer, not a music historian. TheScotch (talk) 06:54, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the comments. I'm a little confused, perhaps because I don't multitask very well these days, sorry. Am I wrong to think that your second point regarding "innovative" is somewhat bound up in your first, regarding whether there are other examples of piccolo solos in pop? If there are other examples, later than Penny Lane, then would this make it innovative? I'm thinking of Let's All Chant by the Michael Zager ~~(sp?)~~ Band; Old Town by The Corrs; there's a massive one on a Clint Eastwood film score (is that pop??); there's a very pseudo-Baroque one at the end of Liebe liegt nicht on 12 (Herbert Grönemeyer album). ~~on a recent(ish) Herbert Groenemeyer album, possibly 12.~~ I'm not sure that George Martin's career makes him a bad source for the newness of the idea - he's not a music historian, certainly, but he is music history, and unless we think he's lying or self-deluding, or unless there's a reliable source making it clear how many piccolo solos there were in pop before Penny Lane, why isn't he a reasonable source for this? Best wishes DBaK (talk) 11:17, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Re: "Am I wrong to think that your second point regarding 'innovative' is somewhat bound up in your first, regarding whether there are other examples of piccolo solos in pop?":

I'd say you are are wrong to suppose that, yes. At best you can quote someone notable calling it "innovative", but in this case the news (the thing you'd be relating) would not be that it's "innovative"; it would be that so-and-so said it's innovative.

Re: "If there are other examples, later than Penny Lane, then would this make it innovative?"

What would make it "innovative" is beside the point. The point is that the term itself is POV.

Re: "I'm thinking of Let's All Chant by the Michael Zager (sp?) Band; Old Town by The Corrs; there's a massive one on a Clint Eastwood film score (is that pop??); there's a very pseudo-Baroque one at the end of Liebe liegt nicht on 12 (Herbert Grönemeyer album). on a recent(ish) Herbert Groenemeyer album, possibly 12."

No, a movie score certainly would not count unless you were referring to a pop song that happened to have been introduced in a movie score like, for example, "Raindrops Keep Falling on My Head" from Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. (You don't say which Clint Eastwood movie you have in mind, but Ennio Morricone--if this happens to be who scored it--is classically trained and writes concert music on the side.)

Thank you for the other three examples. I'm not yet convinced, though, that piccolo trumpet in pop ever became "commonplace". At this point I must concede that most of my knowledge of pop extends from the beginning of the twentieth-century to the mid-eighties and is largely confined to the pop music of the United States and England (Herbert Grönemeyer appears to be a German performing and recording for German audiences). After the mid-eighties my expertise ends, and it's pretty much hit or miss. In any case, not only had I never heard of the three songs you mention, neither had I heard of the groups. I can't judge how obscure they might be, but if the groups had been hugely successful, I suspect I'd would have at least heard of them (the groups). So I'm still dubious, I'm afraid, but you've made a start.

Re: "I'm not sure that George Martin's career makes him a bad source for the newness of the idea - he's not a music historian, certainly, but he is music history, and unless we think he's lying or self-deluding, or unless there's a reliable source making it clear how many piccolo solos there were in pop before Penny Lane, why isn't he a reasonable source for this?"

Because there's no reason to suppose he would have any special knowledge of this. At best he might know roughly how often Dave Mason might have done piccolo trumpet studio work in pop--if Dave Mason happened to have told him--, and of course he would know how much he himself had recorded piccolo trumpet--by his own account he'd recorded very little pop before the Beatles. (McCartney having encountered the instrument attending a concert with Jane Asher is evidence the instrument was in vogue before "Penny Lane", and the huge fifties and sixties fascination for the Baroque having already encroached upon pop music suggest to me that the idea didn't come out of the blue--it was in the air--but, on the other hand, neither did it seem to take off the way, for example, George Harrison playing the sitar on "Norwegian Wood" took off.) TheScotch (talk) 08:44, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Having read your interesting points I'm a bit worried that I am maybe a bit self-deluding here, and have perhaps been viewing the situation through somewhat trumpet-coloured spectacles. (Personal interests and knowledge etc etc blah blah drone.) There is certainly more to discuss here (vogue, timing, Brandenburg II etc) but it could get a bit nit-picky of me, and actually I think the article might well benefit from my leaving it alone for a bit. Why don't you edit it more towards what you think is correct and I or others can comment, or indeed shut up. as appropriate? :) And by the way I thought your edit and argument regarding the "best known" wording was fine, and that it was good to get RVW 9 in up there too. Thanks and best wishes DBaK (talk) 10:42, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. For the record, I have no objection to the George Martin quote (although I might object if instead of the quote we had just the contents of the quote with a footnote citing Martin--anyway "rock" is more delimited than pop would be). Otherwise, I'll need maybe to research a bit, and to mull over, use of the piccolo trumpet in various genres and traditions. TheScotch (talk) 08:13, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds very reasonable! Thanks and best wishes DBaK (talk) 16:04, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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