Talk:M.T.A. (song)

drop kicking Murphy

I trimmed the Dropkick Murphy stuff - it was almost longer than the discussion of the MTA song itself. - DavidWBrooks 23:24, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Indeed. I realized as I was writing all that that I had gotten a bit carried away, but I didn't quite want to get rid of it or anything. Your changes are appropriate, and I've taken what I had before and branched it off into a new Skinhead on the MBTA article. Thanks for your work! --BDD 23:17, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

Good idea - should have done that, myself. - DavidWBrooks 01:01, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

Cleanup & geography issues

It is apparent that much or all of this article was written without a working knowledge of the referenced places in this song. There was no 'Jamaica Plain' station recognized by the MTA at the time of this song's composition or recording. Jamaica Plain is a neighborhood that was served by the line on which 'Charlie' was riding (the Arborway trolley or streetcar line). There were no color designations for transit lines at the time of the creation of the song. Dogru144 04:15 29 July 2006 (UTC)

reversions; why?

Hello - wondering why my contributions were reverted. If I made a mistake, I'd like to correct it. Thanks --DPasiuk 16:00, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Where'd you get the 1949 date? All the references I can find say it was written in 1948.

The long discourse that you added was suitable for an essay, but not an encyclopdia article - at least, in my humble opinion! - DavidWBrooks 18:32, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I did some research on the song through newspaper archives, where I saw the 1949 date several times. However, it occurs to me that they were all from the same source, The Boston Globe. I have seen references to both 1948 and 1949, so I'll stick with your 1948 date.

I will trim my paragraph and resubmit. DPasiuk 14:47, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry but your addition still reads like a comic essay, not an encyclopedia entry. It doesn't add anything to anybody's knowledge about the song or related material; it's amusing, but not encyclopedia-ish. - DavidWBrooks 23:20, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree it's amusing, the whole story about Charlie is amusing, it's a story. The song and history behind it, of course, are true, but Charlie is like a comic character, which makes parts of this article, including my entry ("Fate"), amusing. And, IMHO, I think it does add some interest to the song. DPasiuk 02:24, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

But that's not what wikipeida is for, as a place for people to share amusing speculation and commentary. It looks ridiculously out of place here. - DavidWBrooks 18:56, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Just noticed this divergence of view. The fact of humor is encyclopedic as it exists and can be described with NPOV. That it can also be described in a way that's amusing seems hardly a problem. Dour is not the only attitude which an encyclopedia may adopt, especially in describing homourous things. Quixote's joust with a windmill is fairly described, and cannot help but be amusing. As is the (important literary milestone) the Celebrated Jumping Frog of Calaveras County by Twain. Hard not to talk about either without evoking a smile. So I disagree with DWB and agree, I think, with DP. In fact, I feel so strongly about it that I think it ought to be a WP policy to permit such things when the underlying material is itself amusing. ww -- see continuation immediately infra

Charlie (or his relatives) in literature

But the reason I'm even here at this article is that I was reminded, in reading about the CharlieTicket, about a science fiction story in which a Professor (MIT?) achieves a topological realization whch makes a breakthrough into another dimension whilst riding on the T. It's lost to my mind whether the Professor was named Charlie, but his achievement offers an 'explanation' as to just why the original Charlie was never able to return. Also missing from my somewhat disheveled memory is the name of the story or the author. But, if it can be dredged up by someone, it would be a fine literaty counterpoint for this article. Under the heading ==Charlie in science fiction==, perhaps? ww 06:20, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps A Subway Named Mobius by A. J. Deutsch (Astounding Science Fiction, December 1950, reprinted in numerous collections), although I haven't read it ... the only synopsis I can find online says it's the New York subway system, but the writer didn't sound certain. - DavidWBrooks 14:50, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Isn't WP great?! Make an observation that isn't quite complete, and somebody supplies the answer, tout suite. Very impressive, indeed. Thanks, David. That sounds like the story, and I'll try to chase it down to see if that's right. If anybody knows for sure, don't hesitate to speak up. ww 15:01, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

This link [1]says it is the MBTA. - DavidWBrooks 15:28, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

It's been added, as is the movie. ww 23:46, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Age/Fare Speculation

Not sure if any of the previous comments are referencing this, but I'm a little disappointed that the humorous little bit discussing fare changes and Charlie's eligibility for the senior fare was deleted by DavidWBrooks (see here). Even though it may not be "encyclopedic," it added value to the article and provided some interesting information about fare changes over the years. I attempted to look it up to read to someone and was surprised to see it missing. Any opposition to bringing it back? cluth 01:41, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, me, of course, but that's not what you're asking! To summarize, my objection is that wikipedia isn't a place for humorous speculation: If you want to show it to your friends, create a MySpace account or something like that. - DavidWBrooks 12:12, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Reason for MTA name change?

On that subject, I remember hearing that the MTA's name change to MBTA was because they couldn't live down the notoriety created by the Kingston Trio version of the song. Anything on this, even if somewhat speculative/ULish? Daniel Case 03:43, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

The change from MTA (Metropolitan Transit Authority) to MBTA (Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority) is more than simply a name change. The MTA was created by the General Court of Massachusetts and was limited by law to serving the citizens of the 14 cities and towns of metropolitan Boston: Arlington, Belmont, Boston, Brookline, Cambridge, Chelsea, Everett, Malden, Medford, Milton, Revere, Somerville, and Watertown. As time passed, the transportation needs of other communities outside the MTA jurisdiction had to be addressed, and the General Court abolished the MTA, and created a new authority, the MBTA, with authority to deal with 78 cities and towns. In other words, the MBTA is a totally distinct entity from the MTA, created separately and under different legislation. Jimtrue 01:46, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

title

isn't the title really "the man who never returned"? --- christopher poole 19 mar 2007 68.46.164.176 00:06, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

No. - DavidWBrooks 00:11, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

It's "MTA".B.Wind (talk) 05:49, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

date

The Boston mayoral election took place in 1949 -- ultimately, John Hynes defeated James Curley in an election that purportedly inspired The Last Hurrah. If the song was written for the mayoral election, why would it have been written in 1948? Does anyone have a citation in support of the 1948 date? AyaK 20:18, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I just removed your request for a citation from the date in the introductory sentence, between the reference to the date says the lyrics were written in 1948 as part of the campaign. A 1949 election could have involved a campaign the year before, certainly. - DavidWBrooks 21:24, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Likely not, though. As the "Political Graveyard" site indicates (and it is the easiest web-accessible site; other official sites confirm) the election was Nov. 8, 1949. http://www.politicalgraveyard.com/geo/MA/ofc/boston.html We had a discussion about this confusion on the Kingston Trio message board. I'd suggest that the confusion arises in part because the liner notes for the "At Large" album on which the song appears mis-identifies the year as 1948, and even-numbered election years divisible by four are more common in the US anyway.. Of course, Hynes defeated the more prominent candidate James M. Curley (former mayor and Boston political legend) as well as O'Brien. Sensei48 15:10, 30 July 2007 (UTC)Sensei48

Two Minor Additions

I'm ruminating over a removal or two - the comment, for example, about Charlie's wife not handing him a nickel in the sandwich reflects something we all have thought but that does not belong in an NPOV encyclopedia article, especially with an exclamation point.

For the moment, however, I am adding two names. The Kingston Trio member who sings the verses and adds the "Et tu, Charlie?" at the end is Nick Reynolds, who turned 74 a couple of days ago. The song "Super Skier," though sung by the Chad Mitchell Trio, was written by the late pop-folk legend Bob Gibson. I'm not sure if either of these passages belong in an NPOV article, but as long as they are there, they should be accurate.

More needs to be said, I think, about the actual writers of the song, Hawes and Steiner, whose involvement with the folk music/progressive politics nexus goes well beyond this single song. Sensei48 15:10, 30 July 2007 (UTC)Sensei48

Reason O'Brien's name was changed?

In the article, it states, "In the Kingston Trio recording, the name "Walter A. O'Brien" was changed to "George O'Brien," apparently to avoid risking right-wing protests that had hit an earlier recording] during the Joseph McCarthy Hollywood blacklist era, when the song was seen as celebrating a progressive politician," and then cites a website containing a letter written by O'Brien's daughter to back this up. But the letter does not state that the reason was "to avoid risking right-wing protests." It says, "[The Kingston Trio] changed my Dad's name to George O'Brien, as they didn't want to be connected with radical politicians." Jimtrue 01:05, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

A disconnect in the story of Charlie

There was some discussion of the Jamaica Plain destination but no one mentions that Charlie could not have voted in that election even if his wife had handed him an absentee ballot along with the sandwich. The reason that Charlie 'goes down to the Kendell Square Station', which indicates that Charlie lives in Cambridge, not Boston. Changing the name to MBTA had nothing to do with the song but to the change in to a regional organization. The change was made in the mid or late 60's long after the song was a hit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.19.186.230 (talk) 00:58, 19 July 2009 (UTC)